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further bluring the line

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further bluring the line

Old 12-28-2017, 08:32 AM
  #26  
jester_s1
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I fail to see the problem. From what I see, the AMA is simply selling drone insurance, acting as an agent or a middleman. That doesn't take up many resources, and could generate some needed revenue. Sure, there is the worry that the AMA will eventually become all about commercial drones, but then again they may remember their membership and have both interests peacefully co-exist. It's not like the AMA can't hire someone using those commercial insurance funds to develop the commercial side and also keep the current positions intact to serve hobby interests too. Just because a potential slippery slope exists doesn't mean that an organization will go barreling down it at full speed. Give the EC some credit; they are all lifelong modelers who earned their spot by serving the hobby. Why would anybody think they'd forget all of that?
Old 12-28-2017, 11:11 AM
  #27  
BarracudaHockey
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They, the AMA, is NOT selling drone insurance!

They have an agreement with a commerical drone insurance carrier that gives a group discount to AMA members wishing to fly commercially.

They have the same deal with National car rental, Nationwide Insurance and a couple of amusement parks.
Old 12-28-2017, 05:13 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
They, the AMA, is NOT selling drone insurance!

They have an agreement with a commerical drone insurance carrier that gives a group discount to AMA members wishing to fly commercially.

They have the same deal with National car rental, Nationwide Insurance and a couple of amusement parks.
here is the rub: The AMA is supposedly busy lobbying Washington that "we" are a hobbyist CBO. The fact that the AMA then turns around and advertises "Flying for fun Flying for business. AMA has you covered" only serves to blur the lines and send the wrong message to those they are lobbying. Look at the wording, it is VERY deceptive.

Astro
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:42 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by astrohog
here is the rub: The AMA is supposedly busy lobbying Washington that "we" are a hobbyist CBO. The fact that the AMA then turns around and advertises "Flying for fun Flying for business. AMA has you covered" only serves to blur the lines and send the wrong message to those they are lobbying. Look at the wording, it is VERY deceptive.

Astro
Yep , despite repeated deliberate attempts at deception from a few here , it's quite obvious that the AMA most certainly IS in the business of covering those that "fly for business"

"Flying for Business AMA has you covered" sure looks pretty Damned well like the AMA has the business flyer covered to me .......
Old 12-28-2017, 05:59 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by astrohog
here is the rub: The AMA is supposedly busy lobbying Washington that "we" are a hobbyist CBO. The fact that the AMA then turns around and advertises "Flying for fun Flying for business. AMA has you covered" only serves to blur the lines and send the wrong message to those they are lobbying. Look at the wording, it is VERY deceptive.

Astro
Ya beat me to posting that ad. Anyone with 1/2 a brain can see where this is going and where the focus is..

Mike
Old 12-28-2017, 06:19 PM
  #31  
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Yep, I'm pretty sure they are acting as an agency to sell insurance. Very likely getting a cut, otherwise why bother, out of the kindness of their hearts? Why would anyone try to hide that simple truth?
Old 12-28-2017, 07:10 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Tipover
Yep, I'm pretty sure they are acting as an agency to sell insurance. Very likely getting a cut, otherwise why bother, out of the kindness of their hearts? Why would anyone try to hide that simple truth?
I'll bet they think that by making this step by step transition from hobby entity to commercial , nibble by nibble bite by bite , that eventually when they go full on commercial there won't be enough of us hobbyists around to fight it .

As per my recent poll thread , if the hobby can no longer support the AMA then the AMA should perish rather than be allowed to convert itself into something not even remotely resembling a hobbyist organization . I just can't see how making a profit from the sale of a commercial insurance product fits in with the whole 501c deal ? I'm sure other brokerages selling commercial insurance will have something to say to the feds when they find out there is illegal competition from a supposedly hobby entity that is now encroaching on their territory , since we have tax exempt status and are selling a commercial product alongside all the other commercial insurers of course we have an unfair advantage in our reduced cost of business that I highly doubt the big name insurers are gonna sit idly by for ......
Old 12-29-2017, 04:59 AM
  #33  
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Food for thought.

So if your a clueless lawmaker ( or one of their interns ) on one of these committees and just happen to look at into AMA propaganda for reference and see "commercial this and commercial that" they just might think " I thought they were a hobbyist group" what the heck?

Mike
Old 12-29-2017, 06:54 AM
  #34  
astrohog
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Food for thought.

So if your a clueless lawmaker ( or one of their interns ) on one of these committees and just happen to look at into AMA propaganda for reference and see "commercial this and commercial that" they just might think " I thought they were a hobbyist group" what the heck?

Mike
THAT is exactly where I believe the danger is. I could care less whether my non-profit partners up with a business to promote their products for a portion of profits as long as a few simple criteria are met; a) it is legal income per their IRS filing status, b) they do not "force" me to buy said product, OR use aggressive marketing tactics for said product to its membership, c) said product has a stellar reputation and is generally well-received by a majority of the "average" citizen and at least somewhat aligns with said organizations' vision and mission.

With all this hobby has at stake right now and the challenges we are facing, for the AMA to promote, "Flying for business. We got you covered", is paramount to the American Medical Association advertising the sale of discount cigarettes.

Regards,

Astro
Old 12-29-2017, 07:00 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
They, the AMA, is NOT selling drone insurance!.
Andy,

Do you believe the AMA wants folks to believe that they do sell drone insurance? If that is not their intent, how can you support and explain their, "Flying for business. AMA has you covered." ad campaign?
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:19 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by astrohog
Andy,

Do you believe the AMA wants folks to believe that they do sell drone insurance? If that is not their intent, how can you support and explain their, "Flying for business. AMA has you covered." ad campaign?
" They, the AMA, is NOT selling drone insurance! " is not a acceptable answer IMO. Anyone who sees that ad would think they do and I'm willing to bet they wrote it that way just for that reason.
Mike

Last edited by rcmiket; 12-29-2017 at 07:22 AM.
Old 12-29-2017, 08:24 AM
  #37  
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Whatever the nuances of the advertising campaign wording would imply, BarracudaHockey is right. They simply have made a deal to get a discount for AMA members with a commercial drone insurance company. That's not exactly a wholesale abandonment of the AMA's mission. It's very logical to me; a lot of hobby RC pilots think about turning their interest into a business. We now have a legal path to doing so. Many of us are AMA members, so if a person who is into aeromodeling decides to start an aerial photography business and sees that keeping up his AMA membership gets him a discount on the coverage he needs, it makes sense to keep paying dues. Am I the only one who fails to see how this makes sense for the AMA to do?
Old 12-29-2017, 08:50 AM
  #38  
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I think this is called 3rd party funding.
Old 12-29-2017, 09:29 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by jester_s1
Whatever the nuances of the advertising campaign wording would imply
There are no, "nuances" in the advertising industry. Very simply, it is an advertiser's job to plant a perception that will evoke a favorable response or perception by the viewer.
Originally Posted by jester-s1
That's not exactly a wholesale abandonment of the AMA's mission.

AMA Mission

The Academy of Model Aeronautics is a world-class association of modelers organized for the purpose of promotion, development, education, advancement, and safeguarding of modeling activities.

The Academy provides leadership, organization, competition, communication, protection, representation, recognition, education, and scientific/technical development to modelers.


Not a word about commercial operations in their Mission Statement.

What is the AMA?

World's largest model aviation association, representing a membership of more than 195,000 from every walk of life, income level and age group.

Self-supporting, non-profit organization whose purpose is to promote development of model aviation as a recognized sport and worthwhile recreation activity.


Nothing in there about commercial operations either. In fact, I think it is quite clear that the AMA is strictly a hobby-based organization. That is why it was founded and how it has operated since it's inception.

It is my opinion that the AMA should stick to it's Mission and Vision statements that have served it's membership (quite well mind you, at least until recently!), instead of crossing a very distinct line in order to embrace a completely different demographic, with a completely different set of needs and regulations, in order to simply bolster it's dues-paying members. It is simply a $$/power grab that has NO VALUE for it's CURRENT members (remember them? (here's a little secret: THEY (AMA) are really US (at least that is they way it was intended!).

Astro
Old 12-29-2017, 11:40 AM
  #40  
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AMA is dying and they know it. They then made a play to make membership mandatory with the "...within the programming..." language in 336. How do we know? Look a the membership revenue trend in the attached chart as compared to the timing of 336. During the years prior to the lobbying / passing of it, the AMA had seen membership revenue do nothing but go down. Absent raising dues, which they'd one once already in 2002, they thought the law might help reverse the trend. But we see that it didn't, and once again they raised dues in 2015.

While I've not received their 2016 IRS filing yet (note 1), I suspect we'll not see a dramatic change. So this "Fly commercial AMA has you covered" is what it appears to be on face value ... AMA blurring the line yet again in an effort to change their revenue trajectory.

Note 1: Per IRS rules, non-profits must provide copy of IRS 990 upon written request, which I made on 4 December via the "Ask AMA" function on their website. Per the law, they've got 30 days to comply. I suspect they'll ignore the request since they know I'll be digging through it to help provide the transparency that they will not. If I don't get it by 4 January, on 5 January I'll send a letter to IRS along with a copy of my written request to the AMA. Probably not the type of attention they want, but then again, all they had to do was comply with the request.
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:59 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by jester_s1
Whatever the nuances of the advertising campaign wording would imply, BarracudaHockey is right. They simply have made a deal to get a discount for AMA members with a commercial drone insurance company. That's not exactly a wholesale abandonment of the AMA's mission. It's very logical to me; a lot of hobby RC pilots think about turning their interest into a business. We now have a legal path to doing so. Many of us are AMA members, so if a person who is into aeromodeling decides to start an aerial photography business and sees that keeping up his AMA membership gets him a discount on the coverage he needs, it makes sense to keep paying dues. Am I the only one who fails to see how this makes sense for the AMA to do?
It's not a matter of making sense, no matter how it's been twisted. It is, however, a matter of going after a possible new cash source that is in no way associated with the mission statement posted above by Astrohog. By trying to force commercial drone flyers to join the AMA for insurance reasons, THE EC THINKS IT WILL INCREASE THE MEMBERSHIP AND THE CASH FLOW, REGARDLESS OF THE FACT IT'S IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH THE AMA'S MISSION STATEMENT
Old 12-29-2017, 08:31 PM
  #42  
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There's no force involved here. The AMA is trying to offer the best deal, and if they can do that and make a dollar or two in the process then why not?
As for this being an abandonment of the AMA's purpose, I simply don't see it that way. No one is talking about shutting down competition, not advocating for hobbyist interests, or discontinuing the flying site or museum. The magazine isn't being dominated by drone articles. Geez, this is the organization that still keeps a bi-monthly article about CL Navy carrier a solid 35 years after CL flying in general had given way to RC as the mainstream control method of choice. The AMA is not an abandon your legacy type of institution.
However, if they don't pursue new revenue streams, they will have no choice but to stop some of those things. If partnering with a related insurance business helps shore up their income, then that's an act in the best interests of the hobby and the AMA's mission. I haven't seen a single concern in this thread that actually could become a reality that hurts the AMA. Congressmen seeing the ad and thinking the AMA is all about commercial use? Please. How stupid do you think congressmen are? Dropping aeromodeling concerns because commercial drone pilots become the most important source of revenue? Only if enough of them join to create a voting majority and they mobilize/organize and traditionalists refuse to co-exist with them. None of those aside from the last one is likely.
How about having a little faith in the leadership? They aren't perfect, but they got where they are by serving this hobby before they were able to make a job out of it. Why not expect them to be working for the organization's mission? For that matter, how about understanding that the EC has a more intimate knowledge of what the AMA needs than a hobbyist, a consumer who's never even attended one of their meetings? Why does the knee jerk reaction have to be doom and gloom and a wholesale condemnation of the whole AMA leadership at the tiniest sign of something new? That's the same mentality that is killing so many clubs; young pilots can do nothing to please the glow ARF crowd so they leave as fast as they came. I fear the AMA may go the same way, not because its leadership destroys it with harebrained schemes, but because its membership stifles adaptation to the changing market to the point that no one wants to be members after the current generation is gone.
Old 12-30-2017, 04:56 AM
  #43  
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"how about understanding that the EC has a more intimate knowledge of what the AMA needs than a hobbyist, a consumer who's never even attended one of their meetings? "

The EC meetings are open to members? Never heard that before. Wouldn't that be fun. As far as them having "intimate knowledge" of what we need I really have been starting to wonder..

Mike

Last edited by rcmiket; 12-30-2017 at 05:01 AM.
Old 12-30-2017, 05:12 AM
  #44  
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They sure are. The Muncie meetings almost always had visitors as does the one after Expo.

There's executive sessions where they clear out the spectators but thats just legal stuff with the lawyer mostly talking about in progress insurance claims.
Old 12-30-2017, 05:36 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
They sure are. The Muncie meetings almost always had visitors as does the one after Expo.

There's executive sessions where they clear out the spectators but thats just legal stuff with the lawyer mostly talking about in progress insurance claims.
News to me. I'll have to look into it if I ever get close to a meeting place and date.
Mike
Old 12-30-2017, 06:04 AM
  #46  
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Andy,

It would seem that you would rather just stomp your feet and make statements rather than have a discussion about the topic. I’m sure you understand my point, but due to your allegiance and alliance with the AMA, you are uncomfortable acknowledging that there may be some issues in Muncie. It seems as if any AMA member that doesn’t goose-step to the beat of the EC’s drum is labeled as a hater, rather than a member that has concerns about the direction we seem to be going.

I just LOVE what I saw in this months’ magazine!!

amadroneinsurance.com. LOL

”THE AMA DOESN’T SELL DRONE INSURANCE”

Ummm......okay.....LOL

Astro
Old 12-30-2017, 06:14 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
They sure are. The Muncie meetings almost always had visitors as does the one after Expo.
Of course the AMA could use GoToMeeting or similar 20th century technology to increase transparency by allowing any and all members to attend. But they haven't done that, and that speaks volumes on how they feel about large numbers of people tuning in to find out what they're doing.
Old 12-30-2017, 06:25 AM
  #48  
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Do I understand your point about how it appears? Yes I get your point.

As for the goose stepping thats IMO a bit harsh. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The fact that you have an opinion means you care and collectively people that care are going to be what makes things better.
Old 12-30-2017, 06:26 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by jester_s1
How about having a little faith in the leadership?
Based on the performance seen in the attached revenue chart, why in the world should we have faith? We've had "faith" for a decade, and what has been the result? Consistently declining revenue. Time for wholesale change in leadership. They've shown what they can do...we can all see it in the attached chart.

Originally Posted by jester_s1
For that matter, how about understanding that the EC has a more intimate knowledge of what the AMA needs than a hobbyist, a consumer who's never even attended one of their meetings?
That smacks of elitism. They want blind faith and obedience despite years of crappy financial performance (see chart). I guess us poor dumb country bumpkins are too stupid to understand, and that the EC knows what's best for the "unwashed masses."
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:40 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
Do I understand your point about how it appears? Yes I get your point.

As for the goose stepping thats IMO a bit harsh. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The fact that you have an opinion means you care and collectively people that care are going to be what makes things better.
If the shoe fits (or in this case the boot) , wear it ......

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