RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (Full Version)

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Tamecat -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/28/2003 10:47 PM)

How about a plane that has a 60 -72 inch wing span with a fuse lenght of 50 to 60 inches for starters. Do you want a high, mid, or low wing? Straight or swept wing? I suggest we use 40 to 60 sized engine. I believe we all have either of laying around somewhere. When I think about scratch building, wing span, fuse length and wing type are the first things I consider. Then the engine. Just my 2 cents guys. I think this plane should be a mid wing. Best of both worlds. The plane could be an advanced trainer type that borders on sport.




starcad -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/29/2003 4:20 AM)

OK Guys, I'll through in here. Is there an area I can upload a Basic Model Airplane Calculator that is in Visual Basic? That way we could all use the basic calculations. PS needs VB300 or VB400 to run.




Eaglet50 -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/29/2003 3:47 PM)

quote:

Actually I'm thinking that what we want is a table of proportions. Like the nose is X wing chords and the tail moment is N wing chords and the tail chord is 0.Twing chords and the tail area is 0.2453 the wing area. It would create a template of accpetable shaping that could then be sized to fit an individuals needs as to engine size and wing area preferences.


The book, Basics of R/C Model Aircraft Design, by Andy Lennon, has a chapter titled Basic Proportions of R/C Model Aircraft, that has exactly what you are talking about for several different types of models: the basic airplane (high wing cabin), flying boat, floats, glider, and aerobatic plane. These templates show the proportions for everything, including landing gear placement, dihedral, and control surface sizing. Each template (which is presented in 3-view format) also includes a table with engine displacements, wing areas, wing loadings, wheel sizes, and other. The chapter also describes how to lay-out airfoils from coordinates.

The book is actually a compilation of articles that Andy Lennon wrote for Model Airplane News back in the early-to-mid 1990s. The Basic Proportions chapter is a How-To in the November 1996 issue. Perhaps a good place to start would be to have someone scan these proportions, and then work through a design from there, because the proportions can still be an intimidating balance to some people.

I highly recommend the book, it has a wealth of knowledge inside that can be used at any level of experience. You could start with the basic proportions, then use the math in some of the earlier chapters to optimize things as you develop more experience and understanding. I think I learned more about practical applied aerodynamics from this book than all the courses and books I took in college!




EagleOne -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/29/2003 5:10 PM)

Oh yeah!!! This book has great information for designing airplanes.....If I won't be breaking any copyright law by scanning them and putting them here, I will do it ASAP.




BMatthews -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/29/2003 7:09 PM)

No scans please. You can quote basic equations and concepts since no one has a copyright on the basic knoledge but full page scans would be on the edge. We don't want to go there.

BUT it sure sounds like that info is just what we are trying to dupicate in a way. These average layouts will work but I was thinking that if we could develop some rules that could come together all in one place at one time then folks could design anything from the next Lazy Bee (short and fat) to a sailplane (long and lean) using the steps and be fairly certain it would fly. Doing that means having to enter and crunch a few numbers before hand. Unless, of course, you've studied hundreds of plans and can then use the TLAR method to come up with the design based on your studies.

Starcad, thanks for the offer of the file but I don't see any way to post it here. Did you get it from a site somewhere we could link to? Or is there anyone reading this that could host it for us on a page of their own? I'm a bit rusty on my Visual Basic but I think if you have the runtime module it'll run OK without having to have the whole package. The runtime modules are available for download at lots of places for free. If it does all we talked about above then it may be just what the doctor ordered.




starcad -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/30/2003 12:22 AM)

B,
Let me upload it to my ftp site and that way anyone that wants it can download it from there. I did this several years ago in VB. This is just the simple calculator that will give you the basics of a simple flyable design proportions. Not as in depth as Lee's calculator but it gets the job done. Note that this one has no error correction and trapping. The second version had error trapping and a lot more features however it was lost when my old HD crashed. I think I still have the notes I made and could get the airfoils part up and running again but that would take several days.

Give me a few hours tonight and I'll send up a link.

StarCad




Eaglet50 -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/30/2003 2:10 AM)

quote:

No scans please. You can quote basic equations and concepts since no one has a copyright on the basic knoledge but full page scans would be on the edge. We don't want to go there.

Yes, you are right. I wasn't thinking.

So, here are a few of the proportions that Andy Lennon gives for Basic Airplane, from his book, BASICS OF R/C MODEL AIRCRAFT DESIGN:

For Wings,
Aspect Ratio of 5-7
Semispan ailerons are 40% of the semi-span with 25% chord
Full-length Strip ailerons are 15% chord.

For Horizontal Tail,
Tail moment arm (from 1/4 MAC of wing to 1/4 MAC of tail) is 2.5 - 3 times the wing chord.
Horiz tail area is 18%-22% of wing area
Horiz tail aspect ratio is 3-5
Elevator area is 35% of tail area.

For Vertical Tail,
Vert tail area is 7% if ailerons available, 8% if it is a rudder only ship.
The rudder area is 35% of total Vert tail area (fuselage below fin counts in the Vert tail area computation)

Other proportions:
Nose moment arm (distance from 1/4 MAC of wing to engine backplate) is 1.5-2 times the wing chord.

MAC=mean aerodynamic chord. For a rectangular wing, this is just the chord of the wing.

Andy Lennon lists more items such as dihedral angle for high,mid, or low wings for both rudder-only and ailerons, landing gear placement for tricycle and tail dragger, and the table of engine displacements, weights, wing areas, etc. I will only post this much for now.

Again, I highly recommend the book for anyone who has an interest in aerodynamic design. The main problem that it might present to the novice is that since the book is a compilation of many individual articles, it doesn't necessarily present a focused process or method of putting all the information together into an aircraft design.




starcad -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (12/30/2003 9:48 PM)

Sorry for not getting back to this subject for awhile. I've been busy doing some flying for what I hope will be a new job flying model airplanes!

Anyway, I finally figured out how to setup the download section of PostNuke and have uploaded Visual Model Designer. Please note that this is only a very basic VB program and there is NO error trapping. I should work if you have VB400 or greater on your computer, most newer machines and OS have this already installed. If not you will have to find the download site as I do not have it.

You can download at Arizona Modeler Magazine , following the download link in the main menu and then Software. It needs to be unzipped as it is a .rar or WinRAR file.

If anyone would like to collaborate on further developing the file please IM me for the VB source code.

Guy




starcad -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (1/4/2004 7:09 PM)

Hi B,

You should be able to download it from this link by just clicking on the link.

Visual Basic Model Calulator




starcad -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (1/4/2004 7:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: starcad

Hi B,

You should be able to download it from this link by just clicking on the link.

Visual Basic Model Calulator


Yep! That works




Dago Red -> MORE!!! (2/3/2004 10:11 PM)

Do we have any more Imputs by some of our design specialists? Lets see how much info we can get, pretty much making a thread that will help one out of any problem, or ask questions, hehehe.

Ive always wondered, people build their planes with certain angles , angle of attack, and so on. When i Built the MFD-1 , i didnt use any of that, i just cut pieces out and stuck them with glue. Was it pure luck it flew good, and flew good with the rudder ripped off? Do these angles need to be used?
Hum, maybe its true, I can fly anything, Thats what people have said.

Ok, heres a question im stuck on. I have a long ez, broken foam wing. I can fix it, but what is the best way to do it. Does any one have any helpful advise that I and or anyone else can use?




CafeenMan -> RE: RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (2/3/2004 10:14 PM)

I just answered this question on a FAQ page on my site. Too much, but if you care about my opinion, it's here:

http://www.airfieldmodels.com/faq/miscellaneous.htm




Slacker -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (2/4/2004 11:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eaglet50

quote:

Actually I'm thinking that what we want is a table of proportions. Like the nose is X wing chords and the tail moment is N wing chords and the tail chord is 0.Twing chords and the tail area is 0.2453 the wing area. It would create a template of accpetable shaping that could then be sized to fit an individuals needs as to engine size and wing area preferences.


The book, Basics of R/C Model Aircraft Design, by Andy Lennon, has a chapter titled Basic Proportions of R/C Model Aircraft, that has exactly what you are talking about for several different types of models: the basic airplane (high wing cabin), flying boat, floats, glider, and aerobatic plane. These templates show the proportions for everything, including landing gear placement, dihedral, and control surface sizing. Each template (which is presented in 3-view format) also includes a table with engine displacements, wing areas, wing loadings, wheel sizes, and other. The chapter also describes how to lay-out airfoils from coordinates.

The book is actually a compilation of articles that Andy Lennon wrote for Model Airplane News back in the early-to-mid 1990s. The Basic Proportions chapter is a How-To in the November 1996 issue. Perhaps a good place to start would be to have someone scan these proportions, and then work through a design from there, because the proportions can still be an intimidating balance to some people.

I highly recommend the book, it has a wealth of knowledge inside that can be used at any level of experience. You could start with the basic proportions, then use the math in some of the earlier chapters to optimize things as you develop more experience and understanding. I think I learned more about practical applied aerodynamics from this book than all the courses and books I took in college!


I'm 16 and I want to be an aeronautical engineer, and I'm good at math and can understand a lot and if I can't figure out something, I can ask my dad who is an architect, so he's REALLY good at math. Where can I find this book? I'd really like to get it and get an early start on being an aeronautical engineer, and I would like to be able to DESIGN and build my own plane, then watch it fly. I'm currently building a P-51D Mustang out of plans from a 17 1/2" free flight plane that I've taken and multiplied all the demensions by 2, then I'm going to slim the wing a little, because the FF version is really thick. So, where can I get that book? Could you give a link to it, if possible?




Dago Red -> RE: RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (2/5/2004 12:19 AM)

Well, check your local library. Mine has it. I took a look at the book, it was ok. I like to design and built, and pray it flies!!!!!!
There are a bounch of sites out there too to look at, like the ones in this thread.




Slacker -> RE: RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (2/5/2004 12:30 AM)

I want a book that explains all the steps and calculations to designing an R/C plane. Does anyone know of any other books that you would suggest.




dicknadine -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (2/15/2004 4:32 PM)

why not pick a specific plane, military- sport- multi engine--etc. provide a small 3 vu, let all the guys produce their version. could be different size class's. all kinds of variations possible. dickl




dicknadine -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (3/5/2004 4:46 PM)

is this thread dead or what? no responses since last month!! maybe it was a bad idea to begin with. too many people want to open the box and fly!!! I am ready to start on the plane. lets have some imput!!!! have 10,000 3 views to donate. dick




ramrod25 -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (3/5/2004 5:52 PM)

I've posted this before - but it may be helpful. I have found it very useful.
Regards
Ramrod25




Dago Red -> RE: RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (3/6/2004 6:40 AM)

Well, how about a quick review on fixing my Long EZ's foam wing.

I glued the wing back together, making sure it was straight. Then cut to slots the width of a dowl rod. I used Gorilla Glue gluing it toghether. I applied 2 rods on top and one on the bottom, seems to be very strong and sound. Well, find out after it takes to the air once more.




CafeenMan -> RE: RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (3/6/2004 6:50 AM)

That seems strange to me. First, dowels are heavy - spruce would have been a better choice. Second, there is more load on the underside of the wing. I would think you'd want the two dowels on the bottom and one on the top. Sounds fine though.

Be sure to check the spanwise balance before flying it again.




Dago Red -> RE: RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (3/12/2004 5:36 AM)

sorry it took so long to answer. The reason for 2 on top and one on the bottom. The plane has 3 rods running through the wing. aileron,rudder, and the anntena tube, its a pusher, cant have it hanging out. I have to shave the bottom dowl anyways to make it fit over all the tubes.




kevin pelletier -> RE: RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (3/13/2004 4:18 PM)

i want to desigh my first plane qeustion what is a tail moment arm?




F86_SABRE -> RE: RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (3/13/2004 6:36 PM)

Hi,

A question to the list. Is there anybody who can describe the best method of establishing fuselage lofting?

Thanks

Regards

Reuben




dicknadine -> RE: RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (3/13/2004 11:28 PM)

when you refer to lofting, are you talking about a full scale aircraft, automotive, boat, etc. it is a method of drawing lines, FULL SIZE, on metal plates painted white. which was photographed, then the full size parts were cut from it. it was the bible in automotive/ aircraft design before the advent of the computor. still have callouses on my elbow's and knees. dick




F86_SABRE -> RE: RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (3/14/2004 7:38 PM)

Hello Dick,

Thanks for your mail. I was refering to the lofting porcedure to be adopted when you have a drawing and there are few or no crossections of that plane. How can one extract an approximate additional crosssections from the given drawing? There are some people who use a cut up plastic model (1/72, 1/48 or 1/32 type) to solve this problem but as yet I have not tried it so I dont have much experience in this regard.
Thanks again.

Regards

Reuben




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