The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (Full Version)

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Dago Red -> The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 12:27 AM)

I havent seen a thread like this, so please exuse me if you have. I created this thread so you people that know about this can spill your guts and teach us that are in the start of this stage.

I have designed & build one plane taht flew great. My problem is that I never made planes for the plane,lol. So I cant really add to much to this thread, but the rest of ya, spill away, like to see what you can add to this.




SeenMCrash -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 1:42 AM)

There was a backyard Flyer issue a couple years back, about making foam tray flyers. In it, they talked about what the normal proportions for the size of control surfaces were. Right now I can't remember them from the top of my head, but I'm sure someone does. I guess this is a good place to start? -Andrew




RCParkflyer -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 4:27 AM)

I've just bought a Wattage F-22 Raptor that I am going to put together. What I am thinking of doing too, is drawing out the pieces and making a "Double Size" F-22 out of foam, that I can add 2 EDF's into. I don't know if anyone has tried something like this, most scratch build planes are balsa, but I'd like to stick with a foam core, and maybe fiberglass it. I'm thinking of using either Depron or Clorplast (sic) for inner support frames and folding wings out of depron too. Anyone have any thoughts on this, or am i wasting my time?




starcad -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 5:00 AM)

Try looking up Chuck Cunningham's design articles in RCM around 1984




BMatthews -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 5:24 AM)

A good thread topic Dago. It's been done before but I don't think it's been done in such a way that folks can add small parts until the whole puzzle is in one piece.

Who knows, perhaps this'll be the start of a FAQ on designing.

OK, here's my first bit.

It all starts with an engine, or at least around here it does. From that engine you figure out how big a model you want to build. The size will suggest a maximum weight based on previous models and the expectations for flight performance will be based on that. Unfortunetly there is no way to calculate these first parameters because they are based on the performance of past models and the sizes and weights of those models. We select these first elements by example based on what we are familiar with.

From that basic wing size selection you move to airfoil selection. Not a biggie as we can pretty much say ClarkY, semi symetrical (I'm going to catch it for using THAT term :D ) or fully symetrical and have a fair idea of what these three categories will allow the model to fly like. The actual airfoil may be some high zoot item but it'll still fall into one of these basic families. At least for the most part they will.

Assuming a conventional model you need a tail. How big and how long a tail raises the topic of Horizontal Tail Volume Coefficient which ties in the wing chord and area and the length of the tail moment arm. There's also a Vertical Tail Volume Coefficient as well that factors in the fuselage length and side area, the side area of the wing if dihedraled and the tail moment arm again. Both these values have a "happy number" that goes with them. The optimum number may change slightly based on the airfoil and the type of model but for the most part the successful models of any specific type of model such as Pattern, Sport and Sailplanes all have the optimum values for these factors within a fairly narrow range at least for each category. What's the number you ask? It's been to many years since I saw a graph showing this data and I have no idea at present.

I'm going to stop now with a suggestion. The best way to learn more is to analyze as many models as you can find. Entering the span, area, nose length, tail length, stab area, stab chord, fin area, fin chord, fin span and a few other key elements for many models of differing types into a spreadsheet would allow us to calculate the optimum range of pretty much all these factors.

Nothing says a model has to be a certain shape but it DOES have to comply with the guiding factors that such a spreadsheet would show. After all Ugly Stiks and F22's both fly but they sure don't look like each other.

I remember those articles by Chuck Cunningham. They were very good and covered a lot. Does RCM offer them collected as a book?




cappio777 -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 5:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BMatthews

From that basic wing size selection you move to airfoil selection. Not a biggie as we can pretty much say ClarkY, semi symetrical (I'm going to catch it for using THAT term :D ) or fully symetrical and have a fair idea of what these three categories will allow the model to fly like. The actual airfoil may be some high zoot item but it'll still fall into one of these basic families. At least for the most part they will.



Oh yes you are gonna get it Bruce, bad bad bad doggy!
J/K [:D]




BMatthews -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 5:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cappio777
Oh yes you are gonna get it Bruce, bad bad bad doggy!
J/K [:D]


HEAR YE HEAR YE! By the powers of the Great Administrator invested in me be it known henceforth that all across the great empire of RC Universe that the words "Semi Symetrical" shall be taken to mean "Relatively thick and lightly cambered airfoils that evidence a high degree of convex curvature on both the upper and lower surfaces". This shall be the rule of the land for ever more unto the end of time.

Offer void where prohibited by law. Coupons may not be redeemed in conjunction with other offers. The Surgeon General has determined that smoking printouts of this post can cause lung cancer and funny looks from your friends. Your mileage may vary. Batteries not included. Some assembly required. Cappio needs to fly more.

THERE ! ! ! Put that in your exhaust pipe and smoke it.... :D




cappio777 -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 5:59 AM)

[sm=lol.gif]




Mike James -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 7:52 AM)

It would be great to have a "How to Design..." thread here, and even better if it could somehow be "stuck" to the top of the page, so it was always there as a handy reference.

Well...
That's exactly what William Robison has done, at the very top of this page, with the "Where to find what you want" thread.




CafeenMan -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 2:12 PM)

OK, this may make me sound psychotic, but this is really what I do and it works for me.

I look at a bunch of airfoils and then imagine them in my mind's eye flowing through the air. When one "feels" right that's the one I use.

As for the rest of the aircraft, I use past experience and "if it looks right, it is" engineering. I do the same imaginary flying to check out the design before I start cutting wood. I usually build without plans.

I'm not going to lie to you and claim that all my designs have been winners, but most of them have been good with a few losers and a few really outstanding designs.

Check out the gallery link at my web site (url in sig) if you want to see some of what I've done.

BTW - I have the formulas for calculating tail volumes, etc. and have used them. My thoughts now is that they weren't worth the time they took to calculate because they didn't provide significantly better designs.




jerry dotson -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 2:58 PM)

Is there a way to post an Excel workbook. I have one that I would like to share with the forum but can't see a way to post it? It is not my work and I have not used it but it looks like Lee spent a lot of time building it. Below is the intro from it:

The AIRPLANE DESIGN CALCULATOR (c) was created by Lee Van Tassle. It is available for distribution and use for free, as
long as the complete package remains together. Thank you and enjoy.
I would first like to recognize the following sources where all this information was gathered from:
Chuck Cunningham, CUNNINGHAM ON R/C, RCM
Kenneth Smith, DESIGN & BUILD your own R/C AIRCRAFT, Robson House Hobby Supplies
Howard Chevalier, MODEL AIRPLANE DESIGN AND PERFORMANCE FOR THE MODELER, Challenge Engineering, Inc
Andy Lennon, BASICS OF R/C MODEL AIRCRAFT DESIGN, Model Airplane News
Roy Day, GET THE CG RIGHT, Model Airplane News
George from the PALOS R/C Flying Club for the updated CG formulas. http://www.palosrc.com/instructors/cg.htm




CafeenMan -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 3:00 PM)

That workbook is all over the internet. You could post a link or put it in a zip file and upload it here.




jerry dotson -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 3:16 PM)

You are so right. Google found it right away.


http://www.pandasclub.fsnet.co.uk/index-page3.html




aimmaintenance -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/25/2003 10:28 PM)

OK BMatthews I'm just gettin started scratch building and when you said.

A good thread topic Dago. It's been done before but I don't think it's been done in such a way that folks can add small parts until the whole puzzle is in one piece.

Gave me an idea that might fit just what DAGO RED is saying and might be fun.

Build a plane here with pictures of drawings etc that anyone can contribute to then I'll build it for real.

I'll start by picking the engine. (Webra 50)
someone else designs the wing (not foam core[:@])
someone jumps in with a fuse design
fin and rudder
stab and elev
landing gear
and all the other things that are needed




Kenny R -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/26/2003 3:46 AM)

Before i design my scratch builds .... um...i normaly figure out what i want the plane to be able to do......hrmmm...Do i want tofly 200 mph and fly around poles...ummm.....thermal with the eagles for months at the time...fly something that looks so real people swear it is...or.....float like a butterfly and sting like a bee with a 3d profile....I guess this is the first decision that should be made in scratch building...BTW whats wrong with FOAM WINGS and FUSE...hrmm


just my 2 cents




BMatthews -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/26/2003 4:27 AM)

Exactly Kenny.

Ok let's use this thread to design 3 different models at once. We'll complicate the issue by using 2 differnet popular engine sizes. A .40-.46 and a .25-.28. The three types will be 1) Trainer, 2)Advanced Training/Sport and 3) Pure Sport/Funfly.

So first let's discuss the wing. Here's a table of the sizes I would pick if I was designing these.


Trainer- Airfoil- ClarkY, NACA 3412 or NACA 3414
Eng Size---40/46---25/28
Wing area-..650........500
Wing span-..60..........50

The wing areas listed will ensure the model can fly slowly despite a heavy build at the hands of a beginner. The final trim will be tuned to balance a strong nose up pitching for stall and dive recovery with a need to avoid excessive ballooning. Of the airfoils the NACA 3414 is my favourite. It's thick enough that it's strong but more importantly it should be draggy. Being draggy is a GOOD thing in a beginner model because it means the model won't speed up to excess in a dive especially in the turns. The shape of teh 3414 is such that the rear half of the lower surface is very close to a flat line. Close enough that I'd just make it so in order to provide an easy build.

Advanced Training/Sport- Airfoils- NACA 0015, Eppler 473 or 474 or Selig 8035
Eng Size---40/46---25/28
Wing area-..6oo........450
Wing span-..55..........48

I'm a big fan of symetrical airfoils for sport flying as soon as the pilot can fly a trainer comfortably. The predictable nature of models with symetrical airfoils is a lovely thing and the pitch stability can be set high at first for training transitioning and set closer to neutral later to enhance the models stunting. The sizes here will still provide a decent wing loading for slowing down if the model is built with some degree of attention to structure and material selection.

Pure sport/Funfly- Airfoils Same as above but with optional extended ailerons or flaperons
Eng Size---40/46---25/28
Wing area-..600-800...450-600
Wing span-..55..........48

This gets a little more fuzzy. If you want pattern like models you want to limit the wing area to enhance speed. For 3D stuff you need to push up the wing area, keep the aspect ration low and increase the size of the controls. In fact this is getting so specialized that it may not lend itself to a group analysis. What do you guys think?

Perhaps we should keep it to just the first two?

Anyway these are my thoughts and choices. Comments, suggestions or kicks to the face are welcome :D




aimmaintenance -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/26/2003 12:06 PM)

I think 3 would be fine.
I vote for a fun fly type versus a pattern style.
Could we/ should we make the intermediate plane a jet lookin thing (swept wing [with a stable airfoil]) or will that overly complicate things.
And by the way
Just because I plan to use 3/4 inch plywood for ribs doesn't mean it will be a heavy build at the hands of a beginner.[:D]




EagleOne -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/26/2003 1:38 PM)

Actually, designing the external dimensions and proportions of the airplane is not difficult once you know the basics. After a reasonable airfoil and wing combination is chosen, then almost anything can be made to fly. But the most tricky part is the structural design. Yeah, that's where it gets complicated as hell, even worse if you are going to design a giant scale bird. For this part, there's nothing better than looking at several plans of similar planes and getting the idea of how the structure should be designed (wood thickness, spars locations, bulkheads locations, lightning holes, and so on). Then, with time, you get the experience and it becomes second hand nature.

As soon as I get more time, I will explain this further......But I also have an idea of concetrating all the plans I can find available for download in the internet at my webspace, so it can become a valuable reference for this design aspect....So if you have any links to sites with plans available to download...send them to me:

rmaia2002@pop.com.br




feihu-RCU -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/27/2003 1:54 AM)

BMatthews:

The main point here is the How To's of design & scratch....
I think the main point will be lost if it is complicated by three different designs.
I would suggest that you concentrate on one specific design and go from there. Since those interested must have already built kits and have some building background, your advanced sport or fun fly would be more appropriate.
As Kenny has pointed out, set the design goals, and in the process, show how the selected design, engine, parts and materials relate to the design.

This post started by Dago Red could be an interesting one.

My nickel's worth [8D]




Darrinc -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/27/2003 3:54 AM)

You could also build it out of composites.[;)]




Rodrigo C -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/27/2003 4:31 AM)

THe idea of the 3 different type of planes is good, but it would be better to work with one type at time, If this is intended to be a FAQ for designing we want to build the more information databease we can get. Working with the 3 types at the same time means time thinking on 3 types of designs at the same time.

Also, it would be good to set a period of time to discuss each type of design, or we will still be discussing the trainer type 3 years from now.

About the building materials, either we pick the most common and old fashiened building to start (wood) abd from there go to foam core's, composites, etc.

Schematics and drawings are also good to explian some concepts writen.

This idea can become a great manual to designing and building.




BMatthews -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/27/2003 6:54 AM)

For now I don't even want to consider the structural details. Like you say one thing at a time. First comes the planform decisions. From there we can start another thread about structure if this project gets that far.

The idea is to "design" sort of an average model to determine rules of thumb for the surface areas and moment arms that will give a good flying model. The idea of 3 different ones is ambitious I agree and I'm already cringing at the PureSport/Funfly option because the models for that sort of flying are so specialized. But hey it may be fun. The experts will change things away from the average anyway to suit their own personal taste.

So, no feedback on the wing areas or spans?

We're also going to need a volunteer or three that has and knows how to use Excel or some other spreadsheet to fill in dimensions for a bunch of designs so we can determine the average Tail Volume Coefficients for both horizontal and vertical. Once we have someone or a couple of folks that will do that we can set up a data gathering form for folks in this thread to fill in and submit.

EDIT: feihu-RCU suggests we stick to one type for now. I must admit it would make the discussion and project less complex. And I like his idea of using the Advanced Trainer/Sport model. I think there's a lot to be said for considering one model type at a time.




RCParkflyer -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/27/2003 2:19 PM)

YES Please stick to one model type at a time, or bust the post up into three different threads. I'm having a hard enough time as it is without having to determine what "type" of plane your talking about. This should be more of a "The How To's of designing & scratch building planes." 101 class than anything else. Please use the KISS method (Keep It Simple Stupid) or the only people reading this will be Rocket Scientists :) who went to school to learn this.

Happy Turkey Day!!!




aimmaintenance -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/27/2003 10:13 PM)

So I guess we need someone to jump in and give some size and style parameters.
Hoping not to step on anyones toes here I'll speak up.
Intermediate/ sport
We'll design around a Webra 50 engine
super decathalon styling
Hmm flaps maybe?
OKEE DOKEE
whats next?




BMatthews -> RE: The How To's of designing & scratch building planes. (11/28/2003 12:38 AM)

Actually I'm thinking that what we want is a table of proportions. Like the nose is X wing chords and the tail moment is N wing chords and the tail chord is 0.Twing chords and the tail area is 0.2453 the wing area. It would create a template of accpetable shaping that could then be sized to fit an individuals needs as to engine size and wing area preferences. The asthetic fuselage shaping and wing shaping would be left up to the individual. From there we would start a new thread about structural options that could be wrapped around your own personal ideas of shape. Along with the overall template we also want to come up with a table of suggested wing area size ranges for each engine class.

The idea of this excercise is to create a guide for each person to use for designing their own dream ship and not to just design a single fixed model. We'll all learn more this way and the lessons can then be used for everyone to carry on designing their own models as they will better understand the factors involved.

Along the way I thought we'd look at our design as both a low and shoulder wing and what needs to change to make the wing position work.




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