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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/4/2006 11:49 PM   
Aerohead



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Status: offline 		This is a great thread for us 3d neophytes. On the RC site that I am a mod on, it seems like everybody but me are 3d experts. I have been talking about learning 3d for about three years, and I am finally getting out and starting to do something about it. The info here is going to really help me and others that need a lot of good tips on HOW to do the maneuvers. Thanks, BG and Mike East, for getting this thing off to a great start. I hope it keeps on going like it has been.

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/5/2006 1:26 AM   
MikeEast



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quote:

ORIGINAL: bubbagates

The problem woith changing the wing and such in the sim is you are now taking away the problem of wing rock and not learning to deal with it. I have taken measurements from my planes and transferred them into both G3 and Aerofly pro to get them to better emulate the real thing. This is, to me, by far the best way to do this, though it does take quite a bit of work. You wll end up with something very close to what you have in real life.

In G3, I have the Yak laid out with the exact same measurements and my 75cc Aeroworks and the Cap has been downsized to my GP Cap232. Both fly as close to the real thing, not totally but very close


Dude! How many planes do you have now??


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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/5/2006 3:22 AM   
MikeEast



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Status: offline 		I am planning adding some info about 3D setup and stuff to this thread in addition to the general how to perform maneuvers posts. I think it would be applicable to the "HOW TO" this thread as well. If anyone else has any setup or other useful information about choosing an engine, prop, servos, wiring etc... please add it to the thread but try to make it nice and clear and if you have useful pictures that would be great too.

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/5/2006 3:30 AM   
shakes268



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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeEast


quote:

ORIGINAL: bubbagates

The problem woith changing the wing and such in the sim is you are now taking away the problem of wing rock and not learning to deal with it. I have taken measurements from my planes and transferred them into both G3 and Aerofly pro to get them to better emulate the real thing. This is, to me, by far the best way to do this, though it does take quite a bit of work. You wll end up with something very close to what you have in real life.

In G3, I have the Yak laid out with the exact same measurements and my 75cc Aeroworks and the Cap has been downsized to my GP Cap232. Both fly as close to the real thing, not totally but very close


Dude! How many planes do you have now??



No kidding! About every 4th post I see he's ordered a new one

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/5/2006 3:33 AM   
bubbagates



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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeEast


quote:

ORIGINAL: bubbagates

The problem woith changing the wing and such in the sim is you are now taking away the problem of wing rock and not learning to deal with it. I have taken measurements from my planes and transferred them into both G3 and Aerofly pro to get them to better emulate the real thing. This is, to me, by far the best way to do this, though it does take quite a bit of work. You wll end up with something very close to what you have in real life.

In G3, I have the Yak laid out with the exact same measurements and my 75cc Aeroworks and the Cap has been downsized to my GP Cap232. Both fly as close to the real thing, not totally but very close


Dude! How many planes do you have now??



Not enough

Actually not as many as you think

GP Super Stearman with a RCIGNITON's Zenoah g26 (This is a show plane used only for airshows)
GP Ultimate with a Brison 3.2
GP Cap232 with a DA50
Aerowrks 50cc Yak with a 3W55i (gonna raffle it away in a few weeks)
Aeroworks 75CC Yak
Aeroworks 50cc Extra 260 once it is shipped but it has been on order since Toledo
GP Gene Soucy Extra 300 with an OS160
Carl Goldberg MX26 Sukhoi with an OS 120ax
4*60 with a Saito 91
Century Hawk Pro heli with an OS37sx-h
Raptor 30 heli with an OS37sx-h

All of the above are in flying condition with the 4* having close to 800 flights . The 50cc Yak is fairly new with roughly 20 flights, The 75CC Yak just saw it's maiden plus 3 flights last weekend, the Cap has about 50 flights on it as of a few hours ago and is about a month old, the Stearman is 3 years old with 21 flights, the Sukhoi is 2 years old with about 100 flights, the Extra is about 3 years old with 150 flights and both heli's have about 30 flights each, the Ultimate is somewhere close to 150 flights and current has the engine out for repairs.

I'm considering a Comp-arf Super Extra for something to do when winter comes.

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/5/2006 4:00 AM   
MikeEast



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quote:

ORIGINAL: bubbagates


quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeEast


quote:

ORIGINAL: bubbagates

The problem woith changing the wing and such in the sim is you are now taking away the problem of wing rock and not learning to deal with it. I have taken measurements from my planes and transferred them into both G3 and Aerofly pro to get them to better emulate the real thing. This is, to me, by far the best way to do this, though it does take quite a bit of work. You wll end up with something very close to what you have in real life.

In G3, I have the Yak laid out with the exact same measurements and my 75cc Aeroworks and the Cap has been downsized to my GP Cap232. Both fly as close to the real thing, not totally but very close


Dude! How many planes do you have now??



Not enough

Actually not as many as you think

GP Super Stearman with a RCIGNITON's Zenoah g26 (This is a show plane used only for airshows)
GP Ultimate with a Brison 3.2
GP Cap232 with a DA50
Aerowrks 50cc Yak with a 3W55i (gonna raffle it away in a few weeks)
Aeroworks 75CC Yak
Aeroworks 50cc Extra 260 once it is shipped but it has been on order since Toledo
GP Gene Soucy Extra 300 with an OS160
Carl Goldberg MX26 Sukhoi with an OS 120ax
4*60 with a Saito 91
Century Hawk Pro heli with an OS37sx-h
Raptor 30 heli with an OS37sx-h

All of the above are in flying condition with the 4* having close to 800 flights . The 50cc Yak is fairly new with roughly 20 flights, The 75CC Yak just saw it's maiden plus 3 flights last weekend, the Cap has about 50 flights on it as of a few hours ago and is about a month old, the Stearman is 3 years old with 21 flights, the Sukhoi is 2 years old with about 100 flights, the Extra is about 3 years old with 150 flights and both heli's have about 30 flights each, the Ultimate is somewhere close to 150 flights and current has the engine out for repairs.

I'm considering a Comp-arf Super Extra for something to do when winter comes.

Are you kidding me? That is a TON of planes!!! I gues I cant say much though, I have about the same amount of $$ invested in 2 planes. I think you are the wiser of the 2 of us!


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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/12/2006 5:37 PM   
MikeEast



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This is a comment regarding 3D setup that is very relevant and important so I thought I would post it here as well This is important and could save your plane so please read carefully.



quote:

ORIGINAL: hoveralot

Thanks a lot for the suggestions, tomorrow I´ll try all that, I guess it has something to do with thrust as you mentioned so I´ll see what happens know that it has an ultrathrust muffler (91FX 15x4W APC).

To get more than 45º I´ll get some large servo arms because did some testing in AFPD and there is a real difference between 45º and 60º when doing waterfalls.

I´ll tell you tomorrow


Hoveralot,
Before you do that be sure of what your servo can handle. I am not saying do not do it, just be sure that you won't strip the servo when you do. What happens when you put on a longer servo arm is you lose some mechanical advantage. When you do this you must be sure that the servo has enough mechanical power and physical gear strength to be able to handle the load coming back from the control surface. Remember the servo is pushing the control surface, but in flight the control surface is pushing back! This is due to the winds force on that big old control surface out there while the plane is flying. As you move out on the servo arm it gets more difficult for the servo to handle the force. If the mech advantage is lost and the servo gives you can get a few things happening.
1. If its not a digital servo the control surface will physically push the servo back. and or strip the gears.
2. If it is a digital it may not get pushed back but it can and will strip the servo once you reach the limit on the servo gears, they simply break and the servo strips if they cannot withstand the load. Ask me why I know this.

That is exactly why 3D folks are going to digital servos with metal gears. You go with a servo that is about 2 times what you really need and with metal gears you are ensured that the servo will hold and the gears will not strip with as long of a servo arm as you want to use. What you give up in mechanical advantage by lengthening the servo arm, you MUST make up for in the physical strength of the servo.

Now, I will tell you why I know this.
I stripped a set of Futaba 9151'sm (plastic geared digital) doing a knife edge loop last year, TWICE. I wanted to get more throw for waterfalls so I went from a 1 1/4" servo arm to a 1 1/2" servo arm. When I did I got what I wanted, BIG throws. 60 degrees plus. But when I would do a knife edge loop, at the bottom in the last quarter where you are pouring the coals to the rudder and correcting with the elevator to maintain course (THWACK) the gears popped on one servo. Sounded like a 22 caliber rifle. Fortunately the elevator half totally stripped and went to neutral and I landed with no problem. But I did not understand the problem, replaced the servo gears and lo and behold a few flights later it happened again. Then the light switch went off. I switched to a 333 in oz Titanium geared servo and that was it, not more problems. Of course this was in a 37% Scale plane, but you need to be sure that you take the appropriate actions for your plane.

< Message edited by MikeEast -- 8/13/2006 3:37 AM >

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/13/2006 3:04 AM   
Aerohead



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Status: offline 		Ah, back to 3d. Good.

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/24/2006 5:11 PM   
BillyGoat


 

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Status: offline 		Good thread! Too bad it will be buried about ten pages deep in a couple months.

It should be stuck to the top of this forum!

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/24/2006 7:54 PM   
MikeEast



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Status: offline 		Yeah I know, but it does not quite have what it needs to be "stickied"

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/24/2006 8:05 PM   
bubbagates



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Status: offline 		I'm gonna go ask....I'll report back when I have an answer

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/24/2006 9:50 PM   
Aerohead



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Status: offline 		I think this subject ought to have its own forum, or at least be a sub-forum under 3d. It is too important to be buried under everything else.

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/24/2006 10:11 PM   
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Status: offline 		When this thread was started, I think by the very first day the intent was to make a sticky out of it. I think it still is, as Bill and Mike just made reference to.


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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/25/2006 12:35 AM   
diamondave



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Status: offline 		cool thread, just found it, will be trying stuff and reporting stuff, been hovering alot and trying to tail slide, back it down i guess, that and torque rolls so far, and inverted spins i guess too, cant get upright ones, it wont flatten out, my cg is as far as i want to go with it, hands off inverted and almost ballons as it slows for landings, so i dont want any further back, right now this plane is the extreme flight electric 300, its a blast, lost my 30% yak cause of a switch, looking at the aeroworks 75cc next i think, the electric is keeping me going for now...

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/25/2006 7:39 PM   
Ernie Misner


 

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Status: offline 		Mike, on the upright flat spin, did you mean to say to put the aileron and rudder sticks in the opposite corners, rather than the same corner?

Thanks,

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/25/2006 8:11 PM   
MikeEast



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Status: offline 		Hi Ernie,
Nope, In an upright flatspin the rudder and aileron inputs start in the same direction. Then as the spin gets going you relax the ailerons and let them come back towards center or wherever is necessary to keep the wings flat. Once you are in a good flat spin you are mostly using up elevator, throttle and just enough rudder to keep the spin as tight as you are wanting it to be. You only cross the controls in an inverted flat spin.

If you want to get that elegant, falling leaf look to a flat spin you start out with full over rudder to get a violent fast spinning start and then slowly let out on the rudder and the spin will get gradually slow and trasition to a nice slow spiraling descent. It REALLY looks cool inverted. You will see a lot of the pros do it and end up in an inverted or upright harrier right down on the deck and ready to transition into their next maneuver.

< Message edited by MikeEast -- 8/25/2006 8:16 PM >

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/25/2006 8:21 PM   
Ernie Misner


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Mike, your experience is most valuable. Another question, since the rudder controls the direction of the spin, wouldn't left (rudder) spins be more natural and efficient to the left because of the direction the engine and prop turns? (opposite)

Thanks,

Ernie

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/25/2006 8:29 PM   
MikeEast



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quote:

original: Ernie
Another question, since the rudder controls the direction of the spin, wouldn't left (rudder) spins be more natural and efficient to the left because of the direction the engine and prop turns? (opposite)




Actually yes and thank you for telling me ,
You are right for upright flat spins. They work better to the left, a lot better. Inverted spins work better with right rudder for the exact same reason and actually the direction of spin is the same as upright, counterclockwise. One of my favorite things to do is initiate an inverted spin and then seamlessly transition to an upright spin. To do it all you do is switch from down to up elevator and right to left rudder at the same time. It also works the other way around, that is from upright to inverted.

< Message edited by MikeEast -- 8/25/2006 10:17 PM >

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/25/2006 9:57 PM   
Gulliver


 

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Status: offline 		This string has obviouslu "taken off" so, as Bubbagate suggested in the originating post, how about maiking it a sticky at the beginning of the forum ?

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/25/2006 9:58 PM   
Ernie Misner


 

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Status: offline 		>>> To do it all you do is switch from down to up elevator and right to left rudder at the same time >>>

My 4* 40 freaks me out because it wants to keep on spinning (upright spin, wing with dihedral) after I relax the controls and the ground is getting closer. I've been poking the nose down into a dive to get it flying again. That eats up more space though that you might not have. So to get it out of the spin as quickly as possible, should I be reversing the sticks as above?

Thanks,

Ernie

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/25/2006 10:08 PM   
Ernie Misner


 

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Status: offline 		No wonder it has taken off. It is the best and most concise tutor on 3D moves.

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/25/2006 10:14 PM   
MikeEast



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

>>> To do it all you do is switch from down to up elevator and right to left rudder at the same time >>>

My 4* 40 freaks me out because it wants to keep on spinning (upright spin, wing with dihedral) after I relax the controls and the ground is getting closer. I've been poking the nose down into a dive to get it flying again. That eats up more space though that you might not have. So to get it out of the spin as quickly as possible, should I be reversing the sticks as above?

Thanks,

Ernie



COOL!! That means you are in a REAL flat spin. To me there is nothing cooler looking, but not a more helpless feeling, than a plane that gets hung up in a flat spin. My 37% Ultimate used to get hung up all the time and I would make heart pounding exits at much lower altitudes than I would have liked.

Different planes react in different ways to a flat spin so its really hard to say exactly what you need to do to get out. What you are doing is the most common way to exit a spin that will always works, that is just point the nose downward and fly out. I dont really think about it when its happening, but I think that to stop the spin I put in a little opposite rudder and bump the throttle to get a little wind moving across the rudder and it stops. It takes practice and you do not want to over do it because spin inputs are about the same as snap inputs and if you get too agressive you can get the plane flying and then restall the wing into a deadly snap if you are too low.

I think experience will help you to be able to gracefully manhandle the plane out of a spin and put it where you want it as you get better. I am just an average decent 3D pilot, far from a pro, but with countless hours of practice I have now gotten to the point where I can exit a flat spin just about any way I choose. My favorite thing to do is spin right down over the runway and exit by stopping the spin in either an inverted or upright elevator then down to a inverted/upright harrier and then going right into a rolling harrier. It looks really pretty when its done right. I look forward to the day when I can hit it perfectly.

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/25/2006 10:26 PM   
MikeEast



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

No wonder it has taken off. It is the best and most concise tutor on 3D moves.

Ernie



Ernie, I sure hope it is useful. I am not the best 3D pilot out there and am subject to error, but there are some really badass 3D guys that frequent this forum. I sure hope that their silence is because I am covering all the bases. If anyone sees anything that is wrong, speak up. I am a big boy and can take criticism, heck I want to learn too and hopefully I can learn a few things from this discussion.

The main objective of this thread since Bill started it was to provide the correct information for you guys so that you have the RIGHT information to help you progress with your 3D skills. I dont care who it comes from as long as it is accurate, clear and helpful. I certainly hope that if there is anything that is wrong, or there is something to add, someone will speak up. Everything I have posted is what works for me. Make no mistake, I am convinced that the methods I use are effective and definitely work well, but I am sure they are not the "only" or necessarily the "best" way to get it done.

< Message edited by MikeEast -- 8/25/2006 10:27 PM >

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/26/2006 2:33 AM   
bubbagates



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gulliver

This string has obviouslu "taken off" so, as Bubbagate suggested in the originating post, how about maiking it a sticky at the beginning of the forum ?



I have asked the powers that be to allow it to be a sticky, actually 2 days ago, bit as of right now, there has been no answer

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RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers - 8/26/2006 5:28 PM   
diamondave



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Status: offline 		i found i can give more down ele(inverted spin) and it almost will go into a waterfal but still twisting, anyway, it will come out of the spin that way too, then you can go a bit lower with it as well, i have to admit though i usually just fly out like mentioned, but if you have the throw, thats another option..
quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeEast


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

>>> To do it all you do is switch from down to up elevator and right to left rudder at the same time >>>

My 4* 40 freaks me out because it wants to keep on spinning (upright spin, wing with dihedral) after I relax the controls and the ground is getting closer. I've been poking the nose down into a dive to get it flying again. That eats up more space though that you might not have. So to get it out of the spin as quickly as possible, should I be reversing the sticks as above?

Thanks,

Ernie



COOL!! That means you are in a REAL flat spin. To me there is nothing cooler looking, but not a more helpless feeling, than a plane that gets hung up in a flat spin. My 37% Ultimate used to get hung up all the time and I would make heart pounding exits at much lower altitudes than I would have liked.

Different planes react in different ways to a flat spin so its really hard to say exactly what you need to do to get out. What you are doing is the most common way to exit a spin that will always works, that is just point the nose downward and fly out. I dont really think about it when its happening, but I think that to stop the spin I put in a little opposite rudder and bump the throttle to get a little wind moving across the rudder and it stops. It takes practice and you do not want to over do it because spin inputs are about the same as snap inputs and if you get too agressive you can get the plane flying and then restall the wing into a deadly snap if you are too low.

I think experience will help you to be able to gracefully manhandle the plane out of a spin and put it where you want it as you get better. I am just an average decent 3D pilot, far from a pro, but with countless hours of practice I have now gotten to the point where I can exit a flat spin just about any way I choose. My favorite thing to do is spin right down over the runway and exit by stopping the spin in either an inverted or upright elevator then down to a inverted/upright harrier and then going right into a rolling harrier. It looks really pretty when its done right. I look forward to the day when I can hit it perfectly.



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